New England Jeepz

General Category => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Twisty on February 03, 2015, 05:26:14 PM

Title: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 03, 2015, 05:26:14 PM
I'm trying to track down a possible source for water in the engine oil of my mother's 2.5 YJ. 

Quick history-  Parked in 2012 because it needed a new radiator and other various parts.  I picked away at it slowly, and finally got it on the road again this past November/December. 

I checked the oil a week ago and noticed that there was a white smear near the top of the "full" notch.  I immediately changed the oil and filter.  I drained the oil overnight, filled with some 10w30 that I had kicking around and let it idle for 30 mins.  After that I changed the oil again with 10w40 and a new filter.  During neither of the drainage periods did the oil appear to be contaminated with water.  It was not milky colored.  Today I check the oil again and the same white smear appears on the dipstick.  This new oil is less than 10 miles old.

My theory was condensation in the engine because the t-stat wasn't working correctly for a few weeks and the engine would only get to 150*.  I replaced the t-stat too, and it seems to be working better.  But since I'm still seeing evidence of water, I'm a bit more perturbed.

I am concerned about the head gasket, so I ran a compression test and my results were 160-170-170-180.  Not too shabby for a 180k+ engine.   I took the radiator cap off and started the engine.  It didn't come out like a geyser (like I've read it would), but the level slowly rose and stopped at the top of the radiator fill spout.  The spark plugs looked ok; they are a little worn and the gap is pretty big.  I do not have a cat on the Jeep, so the exhaust doesn't smell "normal," but it doesn't smell sweet either....it smells like exhaust.


Should I run it to get it good and hot to try to burn off any condensation?  Should I change the oil again?  What else can I do to diagnose this thing?  It's needed this time of year so I'd like to have it down for as little time as possible.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Posimoto on February 03, 2015, 05:57:51 PM
Sounds like condensation to me. Make sure the PCV system is working properly and take it out for a long drive. 

Edit, no on the oil change.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 03, 2015, 07:43:23 PM
So I pulled an oil sample.  Not good.  I'm uploading some pics now and I will post them when they are done.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 03, 2015, 09:27:40 PM
I think that this is more than just condensation.   >:(


I do not know what to do next.  How do I determine if it's a block issue or a head gasket issue?
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Casey L on February 03, 2015, 10:27:45 PM
I would just run it until it blows up. Possibly put some of that leakseal/head gasket repair additive in the coolant.

If I wanted to keep the YJ, I would buy this.

http://newlondon.craigslist.org/pts/4836654715.html (http://newlondon.craigslist.org/pts/4836654715.html)

Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Corey G. on February 03, 2015, 10:41:31 PM
Do a leakdown test... air will come out the radiator cap if it's the HG's.

Also check the coolant for signs of oil.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: jps4jeep on February 04, 2015, 07:13:55 AM
Are there coolant jackets from the block to the intake on the 2.5? could have a low pressure leak from the intake into the block?
I'm kinda with Casey, might be cheaper and easier in the long run to just buy a new motor.  Investigate and posible rebuld the old motor as time passes and then try to sell or keep as a spare.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Posimoto on February 04, 2015, 08:00:41 AM
  After that I changed the oil again with 10w40 and a new filter.  During neither of the drainage periods did the oil appear to be contaminated with water.  It was not milky colored. 

What was done differently, if anything, from then til now?
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Ian on February 04, 2015, 09:59:06 AM
your oil looks like an ice coffee
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 04, 2015, 11:17:55 AM
  After that I changed the oil again with 10w40 and a new filter.  During neither of the drainage periods did the oil appear to be contaminated with water.  It was not milky colored. 

What was done differently, if anything, from then til now?

Monday Jan 26: Drained oil, filled with cheap 10w30 and ran for 30 mins to wash out the insides.  Drained oil, filled with 4 quarts of 10w40 and a new filter.

Thursday Jan 29: Replaced t-stat with a new one from Autozone. 

Tuesday Feb 3: Checked oil again, and took picture above. 


One day I drove to the craft beer store and another I drove to the hardware store (both in the center of my town, about 3 miles away).  Other than a couple trips up the road to check on a neighbor and moving around the driveway for snow blowing it has not seen any road time in a week.  At this point I'm feeling that the amount of water to make the oil look like this, in my feeling, is more than just condensation. 


I do not have a leak down tester, but I can pressurize individual cylinders with the hose on my compression tester. 
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 04, 2015, 11:52:47 AM
I would just run it until it blows up. Possibly put some of that leakseal/head gasket repair additive in the coolant.

If I wanted to keep the YJ, I would buy this.

http://newlondon.craigslist.org/pts/4836654715.html (http://newlondon.craigslist.org/pts/4836654715.html)



Def going to keep the YJ.  I just finished a "frame on" resto.  It's got a lot of new parts and drives awesome!  I'm rather attached to it.


Thanks for the link.  I'm going to call him about the engine.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: SPYDER on February 04, 2015, 11:56:48 AM
sounds like a possible blown head gasket
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Posimoto on February 04, 2015, 01:45:02 PM
I was just wondering what changed from not having antifreeze in the motor to now seeing it. Regardless you have a good leak, use some compressed air it will tell you more then a compression test. Without the gauge you'll have to listen for change with each cylinder. Remember to put the piston at TDC.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 04, 2015, 04:00:53 PM
Quick update.  I took a sample to Elias and had jeeptech look at it.  He says that the oil does not have water in it.  It seems to be gas.  Oil is too thin and smells like fuel.  He also suspects that the oil smells like exhaust...I need to do a compression test again.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Posimoto on February 04, 2015, 04:35:11 PM
Does the engine typically fire up when you turn the key or does it take some cranking? Was there a recent time when it wouldn't start and you had to crank extensively? Are all cylinders firing?
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Casey L on February 04, 2015, 04:54:17 PM
Tim, I have a leak down tester I can give to Joey and you can pick it up at his house if you like. I will send you a text.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: rich on February 04, 2015, 07:42:25 PM
Tim I have a 1995 yj 2.5 that runs mint if needed
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 04, 2015, 09:58:27 PM
Tim, I have a leak down tester I can give to Joey and you can pick it up at his house if you like. I will send you a text.

Not sure if it's needed, but if you want to pass it along to him, I will gladly take it.

Tim I have a 1995 yj 2.5 that runs mint if needed

Seriously?  Just the engine, or the whole Jeep?  jeeptech gave me a short list of things to do, and I'm going to try to investigate to the best of my abilities.  However, with the pending cold weather and snow I might not be as productive as I would like.  Shoot me a PM with a price if you're looking to part with whatever you have.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 04, 2015, 10:08:37 PM
Does the engine typically fire up when you turn the key or does it take some cranking? Was there a recent time when it wouldn't start and you had to crank extensively? Are all cylinders firing?

It has always started after a normal ~5-7 revolutions.  The battery is quite old (came in the MJ when I got it in 2006) and it cranks slowish, but it always fires. 

The only time of extended cranking was when I did the compression test.  I did not disable the fuel system.  I figured that any fuel injected would be pushed out of the spark plug holes.  However, I did pull the oil sample after I did the compression test.

Yes, all cylinders are firing.  I'm going to try to get some new spark plugs, check the injector wiring, and check the fuel pressure.  The spark plugs do not appear to be fouled by a rich fuel mixture, and the engine runs terrific.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: rich on February 05, 2015, 09:06:26 AM
Yes I have the whole yj, I am planning on parting it out the 4:10 axles are removed
4cyl,ax5, and 231 all work and shift fine
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 05, 2015, 10:25:16 AM
How many miles?  Are you looking to dump the 2.5/AX5/231?  I'm interested in the whole package.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: rich on February 10, 2015, 06:29:27 PM
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab80/86cj7rjs/Mobile%20Uploads/99ABB5BA-BC23-4409-B6D2-B856B7D3CFEA.jpg) (http://s851.photobucket.com/user/86cj7rjs/media/Mobile%20Uploads/99ABB5BA-BC23-4409-B6D2-B856B7D3CFEA.jpg.html)
Current state of the yj
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Axle on February 10, 2015, 07:19:38 PM
Hahaha
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 10, 2015, 07:50:41 PM
Ok rich, I will wait.  :)



Now that the snow is done (for now), I'm going to try to dig into the 2.5 to see what's going on.   I have some ideas, but I'm going to do some work to figure out WTF happened.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 23, 2015, 01:35:52 PM
Ok, I've done some more fiddling with this.  I've been trying to do it quicker but between plowing an the extreme cold I have not had much time/ability to do so :(

I changed the spark plugs.  The gap on the old ones was WAY too much, and I'm not convinced that it was getting enough spark.  I also found the little rubber elbow on the plastic vacuum line -> fuel pressure regulator was cracked.  Got a small length of 1/8 hose and fixed that.  Then I pulled the valve cover and cleaned the top end.  There was no sludge but there was a decent amount of contaminated oil.  I then thoroughly drained the oil (again) and let it drip for a while.  I re-filled with clean, fresh 10w30 and a new Wix filter. 

With the new plugs and FPR vacuum fixed it runs smoother and fires up quicker.  I think the fuel pressure might be a tad low; ~32 at idle, ~40 with throttle.  But that wouldn't cause the issue I seem to be chasing. 



Something peculiar happened when I had the valve cover off.  Coolant was coming out of one of the valve cover bolt holes.  I do not think that it should be doing this.  Maybe it rusted through, or the factory drilled it too deep and hit a water jacket.  Anyways, with the new valve cover gasket and the little bit of RTV that I put in the hole followed by a bolt I do not think it will be an issue.


I'm going to take it for a test drive now and hopefully use it a little more to keep an eye on everything.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: SPYDER on February 23, 2015, 07:42:11 PM
I know on the 4.0l one of the head bolts goes into the water pump passage way so you need thread sealant on it.   I'm pretty sure the 4cyl is the same way.  So that's good you sealed them back up.  And that explains where the water was coming from. 
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on February 25, 2015, 12:06:30 PM
The bolt that was leaking coolant was on the driver's side, in the middle of the head.  Not sure why it was doing it.  Anyways, I've left the fuel pressure gauge on the rail for 2 days now and the pressure is still reading 36psi.  I can definitely rule out any fuel leakage into the cylinders!  Up next, I want to replace the radiator cap.  It doesn't feel like that the system is building pressure and there is usually some evidence that coolant may be leaking from around the cap.

I do not know what to test/look for next.  I'm rather confident that my problem wasn't coolant in the oil to begin with.  The sample that I pulled is still in a jar and has not separated (water/oil would show some signs).  Like I said before, jeeptech smelled it and immediately said "that's fuel, not water."  I have some suspicions about what my have caused this dirty oil issue and, they are entirely my doing.  But I will not know for sure until I get some miles on this oil.  I'm going to feel like an ignoramus if it turns out to be my fault. ::)



EDIT: Hey rich!  I still want that engine/trans/t-case combo!!
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Posimoto on February 25, 2015, 03:20:16 PM
There is no mistaken the smell of gas in oil, and I've seen what gas looks like in oil (exactly like the pic you posted).
Although it's only 4 cylinders, and you pulled the plugs, fuel may still have washed down to the oil (disconnect fuel rely).
As I mentioned in the second post, I still believe condensation caused the white smear/foam. Winter and a engine that doesn't get to normal operating temps will do that, whether it's short runs, or a faulty t-stat.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: HEYzipupyourfly on February 25, 2015, 03:20:20 PM
Tim i read through this whole post but besides the condition of the oil you have no other symptoms?? head gaskets can be tough to diagnose are you losing coolant level? coolant getting milky too? head may be cracked etc. until symptoms become extreme or head gasket or cracks may not be super easy to read.
Did you have a proper oil analysis done or was it just an opinion by smelling the oil?
You can also test the coolant for exhaust gases if you bring a sample to a shop that has the proper kits. kind of like a pool kit or a fish tank test kit.

If its running fine but keeps on getting the oil milky I personally wouldn't hesitate to pull the head and check things out. inspect the gasket good and if you don't see a fail point have the head pressure checked.
I think i saw a can at autozone that will do all the work for you.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: SPYDER on February 25, 2015, 04:07:44 PM
I just talked to a friend who had a 4cyl yj and he said the only bolt that goes into a coolant passage is the first one on the driver side.  but if its leaking around or near another head bolt, the head is most likely cracked.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: HEYzipupyourfly on February 25, 2015, 11:40:39 PM
(http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo182/carlobmw323/c4294840.jpg)
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: rich on March 06, 2015, 04:32:52 PM
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab80/86cj7rjs/81F8EC3E-6A01-4189-801B-9659BA1AC10E.jpg) (http://s851.photobucket.com/user/86cj7rjs/media/81F8EC3E-6A01-4189-801B-9659BA1AC10E.jpg.html)

You can almost see the windshield frame. It's getting there :o
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Twisty on March 06, 2015, 10:42:47 PM
That looks way better than the MJ does at this point!


Update:  I've put ~100 miles on the YJ since my last go-through.  Oil looks great.  Smells like oil should, no condensation in the top end and dipstick oil looks like a honey color.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: jwebb1998 on March 12, 2015, 07:45:26 AM
Does the engine typically fire up when you turn the key or does it take some cranking? Was there a recent time when it wouldn't start and you had to crank extensively? Are all cylinders firing?

Not trying to hijack but my 4.0zj has these symptoms.  Fires rigjt up after i turn it off, but if it sits for an hour or more it does it again.  Its actually really bad if i let it sit for 10 minutes then try to start it.  Any idea whats causing it?
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: Posimoto on March 12, 2015, 08:57:04 AM
Does the engine typically fire up when you turn the key or does it take some cranking? Was there a recent time when it wouldn't start and you had to crank extensively? Are all cylinders firing?

Not trying to hijack but my 4.0zj has these symptoms.  Fires rigjt up after i turn it off, but if it sits for an hour or more it does it again.  Its actually really bad if i let it sit for 10 minutes then try to start it.  Any idea whats causing it?
But you are. Please start a new thread in tech, I'd be happy to help if I can as I'm sure other will as well.
Title: Re: Need help again. Water in YJ 2.5 oil.
Post by: jwebb1998 on March 12, 2015, 10:41:19 AM
Does the engine typically fire up when you turn the key or does it take some cranking? Was there a recent time when it wouldn't start and you had to crank extensively? Are all cylinders firing?

Not trying to hijack but my 4.0zj has these symptoms.  Fires rigjt up after i turn it off, but if it sits for an hour or more it does it again.  Its actually really bad if i let it sit for 10 minutes then try to start it.  Any idea whats causing it?
But you are. Please start a new thread in tech, I'd be happy to help if I can as I'm sure other will as well.

My sincere apologies, moved it to a new thread.